Curse

Carinae · Dec 07, 2005, 06:09 PM // 18:09

I never trade without a mouseover verification of the item(s) and double-checking the amount. Check the price, then look back at the chat screen and reverify and then compare to the trade window.

Nevertheless, I after reading this thread, I think Anet should make one change to the trading screens:

If either party modifies a trade AFTER the other party has accepted, the 'Accept' is canceled, and they must re-accept.

Mordakai · Dec 07, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I understand I hurried to fast and accepted.

But listening to these stories just confirms my feelings that a another step needs to be added to insure no one gets scammed. After all, not everyone reads these forums, and knows all the tricks. What about those people, is it their fault they trust the game?

To those arguing that "safety" measures are already in place, obviously they do not go far enough, or there would not be so many scams.

Is it possible to eliminate all scams? No. But re-setting the Accept (as Carinae Dragonblood suggests) if someone changes the deal is just common sense. There is no reason not to.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're just playing chicken with trades. "You accept first", "No, you accept first." What kind of system is that? You have to keep your mouse over the Cancel button if you accept first? Ridiculous.

No, all this thread does is confirm my original statement: Trading needs to be improved. The extra "Accept" will not hurt anyone (except scammers), and will help prevent these kind of switch and bait scams.

Thanks for the very simple suggestion, Carinae. That's all that's really needed.

Damon Windwalker · Dec 07, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

IMO, there is obviously NOT enough checks and balances, because people keep getting scammed!

In my case, I sold 2 Black Dye for 16 Plat. But right when I hit accept, he changed it do 16 Gold.

Did I press accept too quickly? Yes. But why not have a "lock" feature in place to stop this easy scam?

But once both sides have submitted, if one has accepted, doesn't it require a re-approval if someone modifies their side?

I donno - I'm not seeing it - I've played ALOT since release, and done quite a bit of trading - I've caught people trying it, but never been scammed...

Bartdude · Dec 07, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

ah my bad for posting the name my appologies :/

well i did look at the trade, he had malions shield but he also put forward another green item. it's when he took the other item away he made the switch :/

Savio · Dec 07, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Most annoying thing I had recently:

I'm spamming "WTS Rune of Superior Vigor for 53k" just to see if I can get a few extra plat and because I'm bored.

1st person offers 70k, cancels, offers 70k, cancels. Hmmm... I wonder what the third time will be? 70g? I cancel all other trade offers. He attempts to plead with me in All chat, which has me respond with his name in All chat.

2nd person offers 53g right off the bat. Yawn.

3rd person? Well, my PSU melted at that point so I don't know.

If I might take a suggestion from another game, Runescape requires both players to accept before being taken to another screen with all items locked in place with text names only. That or Carinae's suggestion.

ozz · Dec 07, 2005, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bartdude

ah my bad for posting the name my appologies :/

well i did look at the trade, he had malions shield but he also put forward another green item. it's when he took the other item away he made the switch :/

Exactly Batdude. The thief is hoping you do not have any attention to detail. As long as you see a "Green shield" in there, you will still accept the trade. Even if a green item is swaped for the shield, all you are looking for ais a green item. Because the name of the item is not displayed in the trade window and you have to mouse over for details, the scammer has you.

This is so evident that people were scammed when folks put dye removal kits in place of dyes in the trade. Folks didn't care cause hey, it is a green dye I want and I glanced; yep it is a green dye so I give up my money. Or, yep it is a combo rare dye and I give up more money.

Fact is Anet/NCSoft can make the trading system as complex as the game itself and nubs will still be scammed cause they lack attention to detail. It doesn't take much to mouse over the item, check the gold quanity, make sure you don't accept until the trade is valid, etc.

@Mordekai: Would you like Anet/NCSoft to hold your hand too while you trade to make sure the trading system accomodates your lazyness?

Mordakai · Dec 07, 2005, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozz

@Mordekai: Would you like Anet/NCSoft to hold your hand too while you trade to make sure the trading system accomodates your lazyness?

Yes, please blame the scamee.

Mea culpa, and all that BS. Fact is, the trading system sucks right now. Even Savio admits it. It's too easy to scam people, and basically you can't accept first. THAT system sounds perfect.

The solutions won't end scamming, obviously. But anything put in place to help curb the rampant scamming going around HAS to be a good idea.

If you want to trade insults, I'll do you one better:

Anyone who doesn't want to improve the trading system is probably a scammer who likes things the way they are.

A legitimate trader won't have any problem with the improvements suggested here!

As I've said before, I'll be more careful in the future. But what about all those poor souls who don't read the forums? Are they SOL? Is it their fault the trading system has major loopholes?

Sarus · Dec 07, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Why do you have to read the forums to know not to accept a trade before looking at the item?? That seems like a real life common sense kind of issue.

You can't hit the accept button until the person you're trading with submits something. At that point you look at the item to make sure it is what he says it is and hit accept. If he tries to modify the item it clearly says the trade is being modified and cancels your accept. Once he switches the item you have to click on accept again. I'm hesitant to say it's your fault for being scammed but I think you need to take a little responsibility for not taking the simple steps required to protect yourself (namely not blindly clicking on accept).

It would be like if in real life you were going to buy something from a stranger. He shows you the item in a box and you confirm it's the correct item. He puts the top on the box and then puts it behind his back, fuddles around for a little bit then whips out an identical looking box with his other hand. Wouldn't you ask him to take the top off before handing over your hard earned money? Keep in mind it's a total stranger you've never met before and there are NO repercussions for him ripping you off (you're in a lawless society).

Here's a listing of popular scams to help you out:

http://www.guildwiki.org/wiki/Scams

Carinae · Dec 07, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sarus

If he tries to modify the item it clearly says the trade is being modified and cancels your accept. Once he switches the item you have to click on accept again.

Sarus, please re-read the thread. They are clearly saying the 'Accept' is NOT being canceled if someone modifies the trade.

So, what's happening is this:

They submit an item.
You submit money.
You Accept.
They modify the trade (as fast as they can)
They Submit and Accept (as fast as they can)

Your Accept doesn't get canceled when they modify the trade, and unless you are hovering over the 'Cancel' button, you can't stop it.

Furthermore....Either party can do this, so who ever Accepts first is vulnerable.

NOTE: I am paraphrasing the OP. I have NOT confirmed this behavior myself. Maybe I can try to scam Savio tonight.

ozz · Dec 07, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Yes, please blame the scamee.

Mea culpa, and all that BS. Fact is, the trading system sucks right now. Even Savio admits it. It's too easy to scam people, and basically you can't accept first. THAT system sounds perfect.

The solutions won't end scamming, obviously. But anything put in place to help curb the rampant scamming going around HAS to be a good idea.

If you want to trade insults, I'll do you one better:

Anyone who doesn't want to improve the trading system is probably a scammer who likes things the way they are.

A legitimate trader won't have any problem with the improvements suggested here!

As I've said before, I'll be more careful in the future. But what about all those poor souls who don't read the forums? Are they SOL? Is it their fault the trading system has major loopholes?

Mordakai, come on, the logic of your post doesn't stack up. I am not here to trade insults with you but try to determine why you feel so strongly about changing what isn't broke. How is it Anet/NCSoft supposed to accomodate your lack of attention to detail and that of others?

Already there are those who have demonstrated sufficient intelligence to avoid being scammed. What is the problem here? Is the problem with Anet/NCSoft? I don't think so or it would be very easy to be scammed during trade and noone would be happy.

ozz · Dec 07, 2005, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Sarus, please re-read the thread. They are clearly saying the 'Accept' is NOT being canceled if someone modifies the trade.

So, what's happening is this:

They submit an item.
You submit money.
You Accept.
They modify the trade (as fast as they can)
They Submit and Accept (as fast as they can)

Your Accept doesn't get canceled when they modify the trade, and unless you are hovering over the 'Cancel' button, you can't stop it.

Furthermore....Either party can do this, so who ever Accepts first is vulnerable.

NOTE: I am paraphrasing the OP. I have NOT confirmed this behavior myself. Maybe I can try to scam Savio tonight.

Lol, but the fact still remains Carinae, DO NOT BLIND ACCEPT!!!!111

Once you press accept, you signify you are done with trading and ready for the transaction to complete. How can you be ready to complete transaction if the other party is still fiddling?

Sure lemme click accept while I notice the gold change from 70 plat to 70 gold, and the item change from a shield to a wand???? That is ridiculous and it is evident there is simply blind acceptance goin on and the trader is too careless even though they know they arein an environment of scams...makes no sense to me. Can I have your credit card number? I promise, I will let you borrow my car...wait just lemme find the keys..wait I almost have them....here, the keys a Toyota Camery. Wait, those are keys to a Honda. No they aren't, don't you see they are car keys, just accept the trade man!!

Mordakai · Dec 07, 2005, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozz

Mordakai, come on, the logic of your post doesn't stack up. I am not here to trade insults with you but try to determine why you feel so strongly about changing what isn't broke. How is it Anet/NCSoft supposed to accomodate your lack of attention to detail and that of others?

Already there are those who have demonstrated sufficient intelligence to avoid being scammed. What is the problem here? Is the problem with Anet/NCSoft? I don't think so or it would be very easy to be scammed during trade and noone would be happy.

Do you deny there is not a lot of scamming going on? Enough to create whole pages of scams to look out for and avoid?

My logic is, putting in some simple fail-safes. (Just for example, a screen you go to after both sides have submitted to approve. At this point, the items cannot be changed, the trade must be approved or canceled).

These fail-safes WILL NOT hurt legitimate traders. I can therefore only logically conclude, that people not interested in enacting some simple changes, must have something to gain from the present system.

And, yeah, I do have an axe to grind. I lost 16,000 gold (a large amount to me), because I simply hit accept too quickly. Whether I'm stupid or not, it's simply not fair.

As for being "sufficiently intelligent": Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

I won't be fooled again, but what about the next guy?

Barry Bethell · Dec 07, 2005, 10:24 PM // 22:24

At the end of the day bartdude will freely admit that he should have paid more attention to detail (he's in my guild btw) but the idea of the thread has been lost here, he wasn't complaining about the trading system he was just trying to let other honest gw players know about some scum bag ripping people off.

And btw the deal can be modified by either party after the other party has accepted and im sure some real fast scammers could catch a lot of us out, the morale of the story is to be careful and watch the trade window like a hawk to avoid such issues.

Peace

BB.

Mordakai · Dec 07, 2005, 10:27 PM // 22:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozz

Sure lemme click accept while I notice the gold change from 70 plat to 70 gold, and the item change from a shield to a wand???? That is ridiculous and it is evident there is simply blind acceptance goin on and the trader is too careless even though they know they arein an environment of scams...makes no sense to me. Can I have your credit card number? I promise, I will let you borrow my car...wait just lemme find the keys..wait I almost have them....here, the keys a Toyota Camery. Wait, those are keys to a Honda. No they aren't, don't you see they are car keys, just accept the trade man!!

LOL, you know it's not quite that simple. Scammers have lots of tricks (like putting in extra items, canceling and restarting trades) to scam people.

It's a widespread problem, and I'm rather discouraged that the response seems to be that it's the people being scammed fault, not the scammers.

Why would ANYONE oppose some simple safeguards to insure the bait and switch scam (at least) will practically be impossible to pull off?

It's like putting in safeguards for deleting your character. It just makes sense.

I'll repeat again: No reason NOT to have some safeguards, and some real reasons (posted by many people) TOO have them.

Mordakai · Dec 07, 2005, 10:28 PM // 22:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Bethell

At the end of the day bartdude will freely admit that he should have paid more attention to detail (he's in my guild btw) but the idea of the thread has been lost here, he wasn't complaining about the trading system he was just trying to let other honest gw players know about some scum bag ripping people off.

And btw the deal can be modified by either party after the other party has accepted and im sure some real fast scammers could catch a lot of us out, the morale of the story is to be careful and watch the trade window like a hawk to avoid such issues.

Peace

BB.

Thanks for your input, Barry. Would you be for or against some more fail-safes in the trading system?

Barry Bethell · Dec 07, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mordakai

Thanks for your input, Barry. Would you be for or against some more fail-safes in the trading system?

I think the idea of a locked 'final' screen where the items and finance can't be changed but the trade can be cancelled would solve most if not all scamming problems of this nature, it can't hurt to make the system a little more secure and it doesn't sound overcomplicated.

BB.

Pevil Lihatuh · Dec 08, 2005, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Ultima Online has a nice lil system that makes it hard for things like this. The only way to be scammed in that is to be dumb and not mouse over (as some things, eg pets, have the same graphics in trade: all pets appear as a horse, be it a dragon or a dog).

Basically, you get the window open like GW. Then it has a lil 'accept' thing you tick... that you can both see. So if you accept first, they can see you accepted etc. THEN the real beauty, is that if one of you drops something extra onto the window, any ticked Accepts become unticked. One slightly annoying, but good feature: You CANNOT take anything out of the trade window. To pull this kinda scam, you have to completely exit the trade window and put the "cheap" item in as a new trade.

unienaule · Dec 08, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pevil Lihatuh

You CANNOT take anything out of the trade window. To pull this kinda scam, you have to completely exit the trade window and put the "cheap" item in as a new trade.

You definitely CAN take stuff out. Just double click it while it's not being offered.

Savio · Dec 08, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

You definitely CAN take stuff out. Just double click it while it's not being offered.

I think he was talking about UO.

Bubba Lips · Dec 08, 2005, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Runescape had the best trader method like Savio said.

After each person accepted...
items were locked in place to make sure it's what u wanted

"are you sure you want to trade"
yes/no

this was still scammable but alot harder than GW's.
Most scams were fake rares ppl made seem worth something.
And the graphics blew on runescape so some items looked simalar which was only a problem in huge trades (32 slots max) isn't a problem in this really.

IMO scammers are poor lamers, every game's got em' you can limit it in someways but they'll still be there.

Just trade slow and always /doubletake before accepting.